Logs for the Kovri Dev Meeting Held on 2016-10-30
October 30, 2016
Logs
<fluffypony> alright anonimal, the floor is yours
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Proposed meeting items:
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 1. Greetings
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 3. @fluffypony's request for finished logo
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 4. ∫alti as Monero project
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 5. libqtoopie
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 6. Preparing for pre-alpha release
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 7. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 8. Any additional meeting items
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 9. Confirm next meeting date/time
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Hi
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Hi
<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-moneromooo} Hi
<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-pero} hi
<meeting-bot> [olark] Greetings.
<boomlol23> hi
<fluffypony> ola
<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-ArticMine} hi
<maoam> hi
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Lots of refactoring, some fixes.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] New contributor olark/olarks!
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Welcome olark!
<meeting-bot> [olark] o/
<fluffypony> welcome olark
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Anything else on 2.?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] (olark has been doing great work + tackling a huge learning curve. very cool)
<fluffypony> olark
<meeting-bot> [olark] lots of refactoring ;)
<fluffypony> maybe you can give us a brief background on you
<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-Slack} <nanoakron> How’s the documentation looking to make that learning curve more shallow for future developers?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] (e.g., favourite book, long walks on the beach, etc.)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] nanoakron: moneropedia. We can talk more about that at the end of the meeting too.
<meeting-bot> [olark] Have been programming for the last 3-4 years on and off. Just getting back into C++ have followed Monero and Kovri for the last year or so and figured I should stop procrastinating and help move things forward.
<fluffypony> olark: https://i.imgur.com/9AQYqBr.png
<meeting-bot> [olark] Also long time i2p user, so I know what's up.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] lol, badge of honor.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Alright, well we're glad to have more hands on deck.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Anything else before moving onto 3.?
<meeting-bot> [olark] Haha thanks fluffypony
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 3. fluffypony's request for finished logo
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: ^
<fluffypony> yes
<fluffypony> ok this logo has taken WAY too much time
<fluffypony> I know that logos are kinda-permanent, but it's holding other stuff up
<boomlol23> why are all msgs going through meetingbot..
<fluffypony> boomlol23: because we're spread out over multiple networks
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: what's the best solution for now?
<boomlol23> ok
<fluffypony> I'd like to have the logo by the end of the meeting
<fluffypony> if colours are an issue let's just stick with the original colours
<fluffypony> we can ALWAYS change it later
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Wait, we still haven't decided on the logo?
<fluffypony> EinMByte: we have
<fluffypony> but then there were font and kerning and colour changes
<ontario> new monero logo?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] ontario: kovri logo
<fluffypony> ontario: no Kovri logo, we're in the Kovri meeting now
<ontario> k sry
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, can pero send you the finished work then?
<fluffypony> np :)
<fluffypony> yes please
<sornros> may I ask if I understood correctly that the i2p code will be rewritten in c++?
<meeting-bot> * anonimal has to move onto next item….
<fluffypony> either uploading somewhere or [email protected]
<pero> i thought i 'submitted' the final one last weekend - i'd like to make one tiny half pixel change if i can
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] sornros: we can answer more after the meeting
<fluffypony> sornros: it already is being - https://github.com/monero-project/kovri
<pero> i'll email it to both fluffypony and anonimal shortly
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Anything else on 3.?
<sornros> thanks
<pero> with the monero colors
<fluffypony> no that's anonimal, tks
<pero> http://imgur.com/a/xCaZV fyi
<fluffypony> that's it
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 4. ∫alti as Monero project
<fluffypony> pero: ok perfect - if you can send it to me after the pixel change
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] sure
<pero> half-pixel :P
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: I had some thoughts unless you wanted to dive into anything first
<sornros> thats a nice logo, I like the font too
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] anonimal: No go ahead
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] We've moved on sornros.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: since I haven't spent any time researching webextensions, can we for sure do what we want to achieve with XUL/XPCOM?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I'm thinking we consider brushing aside the deprecation issue for now and someone can pick it up in the future?
<PowerFlower> hi sorry for being late -_- I hope its not too late. Simple question: Will be the GUI released before the next XMR core release in ?Januaray?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It depends what exactly we want to achieve
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] If we can do that now, we could move it into monero-project and it will gain more attention.
<fluffypony> PowerFlower: this is the Kovri meeting, you'll have to hold that question for later
<PowerFlower> okay :)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: well, the easy stuff for starters re: profile. We can do that, right?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] anonimal: If we accept that the user will have to use the plugin with a separate profile, then we can do everything we need with webextensions I guess
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Can we create the profile using webextensions? Probably not
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Then again, people are apparently smart enough to run TBB, so if necessary we can create a script to create the firefox profile
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I think that was what we were going for
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Problem with XUL is that 1) it's deprecated so development will only get worse for us 2) harder to port to other browsers (contrary to webextensions)
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It seems like a bad idea to start creating a plugin with deprecated technology
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Where's the definite deprecation date though?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] There is none (very vague, IIRC)
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It's also not clear if e.g. it will be deprecated for firebird
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] (in fact, does anyone know if firebird itself is (going to be) deprecated?)
<meeting-bot> * anonimal doesn't know
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] So, we are in a good position to influence webext development: they are still taking feature requests, etc. If we get something going now, there is a far better likely hood of a webdev coming along to contribute than if we have a mostly empty repo.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] And I can't find a date for deprecation, should we really base a great idea on what-if's?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Yes, I agree. My spare time does not though
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I know, nor mine, but I've semi-frequently seen people popping in and out of #monero-dev wanting to contribute to non-c++ projects.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Well, we know for sure it will be deprecated. Just not when. That sounds bad to me, so better try and do it with webext imho
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, so maybe what we should do now then is write a definite roadmap/readme that will give others a better understanding of wth we are talking about.
<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-ArticMine} I have to leave
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] s/definite/definitive/
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: I think we can easily do that for now. Then, once we are more certain about our webext strategy, bring up this topic at another meeting?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] If roadmap is too much, at least improve our readme.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] anonimal: That's probably a good idea.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Sure.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] I agree that we should first see if we can actually do what we want to do, so for example: can we change all of the necessary settings
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, sounds great. Anything else on 4.?
<maoam> a short readme would be nice
<realsony> EinMbyte may i ask for your GIT repository name i couldn't find it
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] realsony: EinMByte/salti
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 5. libqtoopie
<realsony> ty
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: did you get a chance to review #1?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] I read it
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Not sure if I can agree with converting it to a library
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It should be the other way around, IMHO
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] qtoopie is based on I2PControl, with the idea of making it router-agnostic
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] As it, you don't think it's possible or don't think it should be done or don't want it to be done?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] So what part would you rather see as the lib?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] If monero's gui needs it's own i2pcontrol then that's fine; I'm just trying to avoid repetition.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It depends on what we want: if we want to build a router-agnostic GUI, I think I2PControl is the best option. In that case we could simply bundle qtoopie + kovri router and release this as an easy-to-use router package
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] If we want to build a GUI specifically for kovri, then we can rely on the (currently not existing) kovri API (libcore/libclient)
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] But in that case too, it would not really make sense for it to be a library. Instead, it would be comparable to what kovri-app currently is, except that it would be a GUI rather than CLI
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] re: API, that's what the monero gui will be using, but where could we eliminate redundancy if the API and i2pcontrol would also do some of the more basic things that i2pcontrol provides?
<fluffypony> I2PControl would be able to control Kovri + Java i2p etc. right?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] My original idea for qtoopie is that it would fork for all exiting I2P routers that support I2PControl.
<fluffypony> oh I missed the "based on"
<fluffypony> ok makes sense
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] So the redundancy is not eliminated at the level of the kovri implementation, but instead at all implementations (no need for a specific GUI)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: Ok, that I understand. But there's really no way to create libqtoopie so the monero gui can use it now (even in it's current state)?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Why create extra monero gui code and i2pcontrol impl when that's already done?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] This doesn't change the functionality of qtoopie. I'm just basing this off what you said when I brought up the lib idea a while ago.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Sure, monero can use qtoopie directly
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] If it's more work than not, and adversely effects qtoopie, then I understand.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] at least in the sense "you can display the windows defined in the qtoopie project"
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] I guess that would classify as a library.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] The question is why you would want to bundle it like that
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] (you could also just provide the executable with the monero executables, and then open this from the monero GUI, there would be little difference to the end use)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] To save redundant code so people don't have to install qtoopie to use qtoopie; and so it's integrated with the monero gui.
<fluffypony> can't we have our own controls in the GUI
<fluffypony> with bindings to libqtoopie functions ?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: own controls to API, sure.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: libqtoopie, EinMByte would know; I imagined yes.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] By the way, for reference on i2pcontrol: http://zzz.i2p/topics/2030-proposal-bundle-i2pcontrol, http://zzz.i2p/topics/1942-i2pcontrol-for-generic-user-interfaces
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] If you want to have your own controls, there's not much point in using all of qtoopie
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] then you just need to use i2pcontrol
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] (which is very simple to implement; or you could use the part of qtoopie that deals with this)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte I think you're missing the point but I'm probably not explaining my intentions well.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] So, libqtoopie: not needed. qtoopie: agnostic but will not be in library form.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] We will create our own controls that use the API
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] qtoopie is an end-user program, hence why I'd say "not in library form"
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I know EinMByte, I'm just trying to save time and code.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] We could take some of the code in qtoopie and put it in a library "libi2pcontrol-client"
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] This library could then be used by e.g. monero
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] i2pcontrol is insanely overrated, seriously overrated in relation to as much time as we're talking about it.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] But this is assuming that monero would be using i2pcontrol at all
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I don't see the point if there are API's in place.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] And i2pcontrol is limited in its own right.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Yes, i2pcontrol has severe limitations
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] So, unless that entire spec is worked on, I have nothing more to say on the subject for now.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] (even the proposed version 2)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, so we'll learn from the mistakes of others and try not to make our own.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: does that makes sense? anyone need a tl;dr?
<fluffypony> yes it does
<fluffypony> tl;dr for the log
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] tl;dr qtoopie is great. We won't be using qtoopie in lib or bundled form because of severe limitations in i2pcontrol. We will be using GUI controls via the kovri API(s).
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] What is important to understand is that I2PControl is intended to create high-level control programs
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] It isn't designed to deal with lower-level configuration that monero might need
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Anything else on 5.?
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] One of the main limitations, in case anyone is wondering, is that i2pcontrol has to serialize everything and send it over the network
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] There's no possiblity of handlers or anything like that too
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] (you have to continuously request updates)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] yes.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, 8 minutes
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 6. Preparing for pre-alpha release
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] For a simple GUI, that's probably good enough but it doesn't work when you want to integrate kovri with something like monero
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Yay! Nov. 1st pre-alpha will not happen, nooo way. I've been busy this month with non-code work; only recently with more code.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte has been very busy too.
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] :|
<fluffypony> no problemo - let's get it right instead of getting it rushed :)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] EinMByte: realistically, I think we should push the date to Dec. 1st or later.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] It's never going to perfect in my eyes, but…
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] Sure
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] dont' expect more activity from me though
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] You mean ever or temporary?
<meeting-bot> * anonimal hopes temporary
<meeting-bot> [EinMByte] I mean before december the first
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok. I'll set a tentative date for dec. 1st; no later than 33c3.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] (which is not dec. 1st of course)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] I'll have to adjust the milestone date on github and roadmap etc.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Any other thoughts on 6.?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] This coming month should be far more productive code-wise than in october.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] We'll see what we can knock-out before december.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 2 minutes to spare
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Skipping 7. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A unless anyone wants to say something?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] 8. Any additional meeting items
<fluffypony> nope that's it from my side
<fluffypony> glad to see the refactoring efforts
<fluffypony> will make stuff easier to work on later on
<meeting-bot> [iDunk] head works now, thanks anonimal
<PowerFlower> oberservers can now ask questions?
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] fluffypony: yes indeedy
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] iDunk: you're welcome, thanks for the notice and for actively testing :)
<meeting-bot> [iDunk] np :)
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] PowerFlower: kovri questions, yes
<fluffypony> ok let's close up the Kovri meeting and then PowerFlower can ask their Monero question :-P
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Oh, those kinds of questions.
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Ok, 9. Confirm next meeting date/time
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Same time, two weeks?
<meeting-bot> [olark] Sounds good.
<fluffypony> yes
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Alright, thank you EinMByte and everyone else here for making the meeting.
<fluffypony> meeting bot going down to switch back to the Monero stuf
<meeting-bot> [anonimal] Thanks fluffypony
Post tags : Dev Diaries, Kovri I2P Router, Cryptography