Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2019-05-25
May 25, 2019
Logs
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Let's get ready to rumble!!!
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Meeting time!!!
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> More exclamation marks are always helpful.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> 1. Greetings
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Which of you lamewads are here today?
<ErCiccione> Hi
<sarang> Yo
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Even if it's just us three, I couldn't ask for a better group. :')
<ErCiccione> <3
<el00ruobuob_[m]> Hi
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Well, others can trickle in as they are able.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> 2. CCS Stuffs.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Well, before that, as always, rehrar does an incredible, impeccable, unreplaceable, and astounding job with the Revuo which has a lot of community updates.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Latest is here. https://revuo-monero.com/issue-9.html
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> I assume that's why community updates were removed, anyways.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Ok, CCS Stuffs.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> So…first and foremost, we're in a bit of an awkward situation.
<_Slack> <intj440> hello
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> The proposal for RandomX audits is fully funded.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> that's good news!
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Despite many (even a perceived majority) in the community thinking a fourth audit has diminishing returns, and shouldn't be done.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> But those who donated, did so under the assumption that the randomX audit would be what their donation will be used for.
<sarang> Yes
<sarang> If there was a desire to reduce the number, it is too late
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Unless some people are willing to deanonymize their donation and state that they are ok with this money going to other proposals or audits in the future.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> As I recall, nioc said something like that? Or was it someone else.
<ErCiccione> I saw in -pow somebody proposing to start the last 2 audits after the first 2 are completed. So to avoid reduntant resutls. That sounds like a good idea to me
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> I wonder how I could add "stretch goal" functionality to the CCS.
<ErCiccione> at least would make the last audit "less useless", since they could audit eventual fixes proposed by the other 2 auditors
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> So we can have it "fully funded" at one point, but it can go further for more points.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> The problem is we have some incredibly generous whales who don't follow the day to day. They just assume if something has been merged, it's worth funding and there is consensus in the community.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> And so they saw it not completely filled, and they filled it.
<sarang> Since we must use the funds on this, I agree with staggering
<sarang> Otherwise you could get necessary fixes to that are never audited
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Do you think I should make a Reddit post outlining what happened, and give people an opportunity to "withdraw" funds?
<sarang> Is this a precedent you want to set for future CCS?
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> But if staggering is the correct approach, then I'm all for it.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> No. Not at all.
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> But RandomX can be a notable exception.
<ErCiccione> rehrar: i don't think that's a good idea, better just learn from the issue and discuss how to avoid it next time
<sarang> Are you prepared to justify the exception?
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Regardless, I'll speak with Luigi to get his insight, but it's looking fairly set in stone.
<sarang> And address how to avoid it in the future?
<xmrscott[m]> It can, I think it's worth highlighting the precedent it *may* set however
<sarang> Fwiw I was not in favor of 4 audits for this
<_Slack> <intj440> I am not convinced there is a "cliff of waste" that kicks in at 3.5 audits. I would vote for maximizing bang-for-the-buck with already pledged funds
<sarang> But I am also funded by CCS
<el00ruobuob_[m]> Just one thing, the proposal is talking about 3 audits, not 4. Did i miss-read?
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Well, I think we can move on for the time being. At the moment, the default is to use funds in the manner in which they were given for.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> oh yes i missread
<needmoney90> A single donor made a 1000xmr donation.
<needmoney90> I believe we can probably reach out to them
<xmrmatterbridge> <rehrar> Defcon CCS proposals are up for discussion. I just posted something to the Reddit right now. Please comment and/or emoji the proposals somehow.
<needmoney90> That makes it easy to remove a chunk of funds from the proposal from a donor
<needmoney90> There is already precedent for donors getting refunded and stuff by proving they sent txes
<ErCiccione> needmoney90: removing funds from a proposal is a very serious precedent. I think a discussion with the core team would e necessary before taking it in consideration (adn fwiw, i don;t think it's a good idea)
<el00ruobuob_[m]> Well, the 1400XMR is for 3 audits, not 4. I don't understand…
<needmoney90> From memory it's happened before
<needmoney90> el00ruobuob_[m]: arweave is funding trailofbits
<needmoney90> So we have one extra audit
<needmoney90> By funding 3 we bring the total to 4
<needmoney90> The proposal covers 3 independent of arweave
<xmrscott[m]> Yes, but I believe that was for a FFS that was floundering in exec if mem serves
<el00ruobuob_[m]> ok, i didn't know about this
<needmoney90> ErCiccione: I believe there is already precedent for refunds from FFS proposals
<needmoney90> From memory
<ErCiccione> needmoney90: alright, i don't recall any, but i may be wrong.
<needmoney90> Can't recall where, but it was definitely a 'prove you sent the TX and we can refund'
<needmoney90> I don't think there was controversy back then
<needmoney90> fluffypony: is my memory serving me correctly?
<needmoney90> Being the fund steward, you probably know
<rehrar> so
<ErCiccione> maybe for the fireice situation?
<needmoney90> Anyways, carry on. Fluffy can respond at his leisure.
<rehrar> refunds are incredibly rare
<rehrar> what there is precedent for is that someone gave a good amount of money toward a proposal, in this case it was the Monero Challenge
<rehrar> he topped it up, and it was over 100 XMR or something like that
<rehrar> but that proposal was already defunct
<rehrar> he was present enough in the community, to see the thread that was made about that and made himself known, and said he was comfortable with that going to the general fund
<ErCiccione> In that case i guess it makes sense
<rehrar> BUT
<rehrar> all of these "exceptions" are at the leisure of the core team
<sarang> I think donors should have their wishes honored here
<rehrar> agreed. Unless a donor speaks up (like say in dEBRUYNE's thread) saying they are ok with their donation used for other purposes, we have to go with the default
<rehrar> we can't really push this conversation further without them, unfortunately, so we'll have to move on
<ErCiccione> i agree. We can just find a way to optimize those audits
<rehrar> we also have a brand new proposal from a guy wanting us to pay to get onto his e-commerce site
<rehrar> fresh this morning
<rehrar> to his credit, he formatted the proposal properly, which is more than I can say for some Monero regulars :D
<rehrar> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/72
<rehrar> but barring that, is there any updates in terms of CCS stuff that anyone wants to give (if you're funded)
<rehrar> no, ok
<rehrar> 3. workgroup stuff
<rehrar> a. Daemon/CLI workgroup
<rehrar> so like…core software stuff? is mooo even here?
<rehrar> or anyone else that can speak for it
<ErCiccione> i guess there are no updates on that side. i saw some bug fixing, but i think we are mostly waiting on pony to build. moneromooo will know better
<parasew[m]> (hi everyone, sorry a bit late to meeting but reading logs now)
<rehrar> ok
<rehrar> b. The Localize Gang
<ErCiccione> nothing particularly new from the gang. I'm mostly done with testing weblate and i'm waiting for the GUI to be out to replace pootle with weblate,
<rehrar> coo
<ErCiccione> the chinese website will be out soon and the chinese-taiwanese version is in progress (thanks lafudoci),
<rehrar> done?
<ErCiccione> i'm also reviewing every day the translations we get for the GUI, that sadly, are much less than last release (about 1/3)
<el00ruobuob_[m]> I did French of GUI in a hurry earlier this week, at least this one is done
<ErCiccione> el00ruobuob_: i noticed, thanks. But you also approved your own translations :P (i left a comment in -translations about that - it should be really avoided)
<ErCiccione> so, i started the technical review of french for that reason. It will take some time.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> oh, my bad. I may have clicked on the wrong button
<ErCiccione> oh, my proposal was fully funded yesterday. I renew my thanks to the community for that :)
<rehrar> alright
<rehrar> c. The GUI club
<ErCiccione> oh, we will have a couple new languages on monerujo,
<ErCiccione> nothing more. Rehrar feel free to go on
<selsta> No GUI news we are waiting on release :P
<rehrar> sad
<rehrar> ok, boys and girls. We have a surprise guest with us today.
<ErCiccione> everything is stalling… You can all translate things! :P
<rehrar> I'd like everyone to put their hands together for michael (msvb-mob)!!!
<rehrar> clap clap clap
<rehrar> he'd like a few minutes for people to ask questions regarding hardware stuff, and to announce something as well
<msvb-mob> Thanks for the clap, very nice.
<msvb-mob> I have a couple hardware announcements, and we have minutes for questions I guess.
<msvb-mob> We are making enclosures.
<msvb-mob> Serially producing with injection moulding technology, which requires to decide one color and plastic chemistry.
<msvb-mob> As well as piece producing with FDM (fused deposition modelling) leading to results each enclosure may look different (according to wishes.)
<msvb-mob> Here are examples of FDM in house production:
<msvb-mob> https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-rfc-hwallet-1-implementation/
<msvb-mob> At the top of the timeline, or a static URL is https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-rfc-hwallet-1-implementation/t/161/
<msvb-mob> The survey for choosing the injection moulding color was inconclusive, here are the results:
<parasew[m]> congrats on the enclosure!
<msvb-mob> 39% Black
<msvb-mob> 28% Orange
<msvb-mob> 23% Trans
<msvb-mob> 35% Opaque (0)
<msvb-mob> 20% 30 percent
<msvb-mob> 20% 60 percent
<msvb-mob> 27% 90 percent
<msvb-mob> To decide between the top choices black or orange, as well as transparent or opaque, please use this new runoff survey:
<msvb-mob> https://survey.zohopublic.com/zs/G6CNEI
<msvb-mob> Be aware that regardless of opacity, the top lid will probably be glass clear, because I can't find acrylic in other colours for 2mm thickness.
<msvb-mob> If you want to influence the way the serial produced enclosure will look, then p
<msvb-mob> lease vote on our last chance survey, thanks.
<msvb-mob> I'll announce the final winner before flying to Shenzhen to meet manufacturers.
<msvb-mob> There is other activity involving the projects Monero Metal, Monero Shield, and Monero Badges.
<msvb-mob> I'll end the monologue there, does anybody have questions?
<el00ruobuob_[m]> Could you share some timeline?
<el00ruobuob_[m]> (approx)
<msvb-mob> el00ruobuob_[m]: The timeline of serial production is 2 months for ABS and 2 1/2 months for PC. The PC plastic is stronger but more expensive and more difficult to produce the tool (mold) for.
<ErCiccione> the survey doesn't work for me. It hangs when i click next and nothing happens.
<rehrar> what is the status of the hardware wallet itself? Is it waiting on firmware? Is it possible to sign Monero transactions? etc.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> working fine on chrome ErCiccione
<rehrar> are any of the two existing versions more complete than the other?
<msvb-mob> ErCiccione: That's bad news, I don't know how to maintain it as it's Zoho hosted.
<ErCiccione> might be my settings on firefox.
<msvb-mob> rehrar: I think your question is 'Of two active wallet development branches, which is more complete?'
<rehrar> correct
<msvb-mob> The answer is that the trunk (head or main according to Git) is the safer long term choice but more advanced. The revstm branch is more complete, but not as good.
<rehrar> I see. And is the trunk able to interact with Monero in the way we'd like it to?
<rehrar> or is that still a ways off?
<msvb-mob> This is better: https://github.com/monero-project/kastelo/tree/master/hardware/breakneck/
<msvb-mob> …but this is tested: https://github.com/monero-project/kastelo/tree/revstm/hardware/breakneck/
<msvb-mob> The trunk has no firmware, so it's impossible to answer. But logically (estimation) it will do all revstm (STM32L476RET6) can do but better.
<rehrar> fascinating.
<rehrar> Anyone else have questions?
<msvb-mob> The revstm branch constructs XMR wallets in it's early firmware (not yet released but online.)
<msvb-mob> Aside from wallets, we need help with firmware development for badges. The problem is that not many details may be revealed about them.
<ErCiccione> (about the survery, i forgot to enable XHR for that page on umatrix. Working fine now)
<msvb-mob> I want to convince the most secretive people that we open up information for Konferenco and do a firmware workshop.
<msvb-mob> That may be wishful thinking, but it's my hope.
<msvb-mob> ErCiccione: So AJAX is required, meaning Noscript will tank the survey right?
<rehrar> is it because you want them to be a surprise?
<rehrar> or is there another reason for the secrecy?
<msvb-mob> rehrar: There is another reason for secrecy. Half absurd and half okay.
<ErCiccione> msv-mob: very likely, yes
<msvb-mob> Any other questions for Monero Hardware or shall rehrar move to the next topic?
<nevvton[m]> what did you have in mind earlier - with the projects: Monero Metal, Monero Shield, and Monero Badges. .. could you elaborate?
<msvb-mob> Monero Metal is a indistructable (up to 2000 degrees heat) metal wallet.
<msvb-mob> Monero Shield is a Euroshield clone that's a shoebox size for mobility.
<msvb-mob> Monero badges are simply a number of designs for events.
<msvb-mob> You know, badges.
<nevvton[m]> certainly i've seen and enjoyed your badges..
<msvb-mob> I actually have no idea how hot Ainsi183 steel can become before being damaged.
<rehrar> Alright. Last call for questions.
<rehrar> or we'll be moving along here
<nevvton[m]> i am ahving a look into these euroshields, as i am not familiar w/ them.. might ask later in detail
<parasew[m]> re:steel - i think if you shoot it to the moon it would be ok (monero to the moon), but we need some material for "monero to the sun"
<rehrar> Alright everyone. Open Ideas Time.
<msvb-mob> \Thanks to everyone for participating in the enclosure survey: https://survey.zohopublic.com/zs/G6CNEI
<rehrar> Anything at all can be discussed. Have at it.
<msvb-mob> …and please broadcast to Facebook, Reddit, Twittie, and wherever else.
<parasew[m]> msvb-mob: spread the survey? or news about the wallet?
<msvb-mob> parasew[m]: Please tell others about the enclosure survey.
<parasew[m]> okay, will do!
<ErCiccione> msvb-mob: for next survey i would suggest a torbrowser-friendly survey tool. Just to give everybody the possibility to vote anonimously
<msvb-mob> ErCiccione, that's quite a good idea. If anyone gives a suggestion, I'll use it.
<msvb-mob> If there are no open ideas, would nevvton and parasew please give a summary of RIAT activities?
<ErCiccione> msvb-mob: i used some in past, if i find the names again i will drop a comment here or somewhere else.
<msvb-mob> ErCiccione: Thanks, I'll be in China for a while, so write [email protected].
<ErCiccione> will do. have a nice trip :)
<rehrar> we're closing on the hour here people
<rehrar> chop cho
<msvb-mob> parasew[m] nevvton[m]: Any RIAT news?
<rehrar> that would be for another forum, I'm afraid.
<rehrar> We can go ahead and call the meeting here then.
<rehrar> Thanks everyone for joining! It's been a pleasure.
Post tags : Dev Diaries, Cryptography