Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2018-07-21
July 21, 2018
Logs
<sgp_> All right, community meeting time!
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/262
<ArticMine> Hi
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support. Stay up to date with the latest events by subscribing to this calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<rehrar> lul from one to the next
<msvb-lab> Hello.
<oneiric_> onwards, heeeeelllo
<pwrcycle> hi all
<xmrscott_> Hola
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> "Kudelski Security completed their [bulletproof] report. They found only a few minor issues that are trivial to correct, and no major issues." Overall, a huge win for Monero, bulletproofs, and privacy. Full report will be published soon. https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8yvts5/kudelski_security_completed_their_bulletproof/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] "Kudelski Security completed their [bulletproof] report. They found only a few minor issues that are trivial to correct, and no major issues." Overall, a huge win for Monero, bulletproofs, and privacy. Full report will be published soon. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxXtvMTDEuY&t=13m24s) to r/Monero | 339 points (97.0%) | 101 comments | Posted by SamsungGalaxyPlayer | Created at 2018-07-14 - 19:37:02
<sgp_> A draft report is available in the comments
<sgp_> We had our Coffee Chat with Blockfolio last week, which was the second most viewed to date: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxXtvMTDEuY
<monerobux> [ Monero Coffee Chat - 2018.07.14 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
<sgp_> Tutanota added Monero for donations with the promise of adding it later for purchases https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/cryptocurrency-support
<sgp_> Change.org started a project to mine Monero. Proceeds from mining are donated to the Change.org Foundation https://theminingscreensaver.com
<sgp_> Riccardo Spagni spoke about Monero at the Global Blockchain Congress: https://twitter.com/jamesprestonza/status/1018860725958307841
<monerobux> [ James Preston on Twitter: "Flippen epic talk by @fluffypony at the Global Blockchain Congress! “In crypto, ideology is just as important as technology and team.” Such a big idea. Might break this do ] - twitter.com
<sgp_> u/Ninja_Apple made a Monero animation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8zkk7g/i_made_a_cleaner_logo_animation_for_you_guys/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] I made a cleaner logo animation for you guys (https://i.redd.it/inzgkgyd1ia11.gif) to r/Monero | 256 points (91.0%) | 22 comments | Posted by Ninja_Apple | Created at 2018-07-17 - 12:08:09
<sgp_> u/anhdres made art to depict Monerujo and Ledger integration https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8zi2cm/ive_made_a_faux_g%C3%BCnthernapoleon_leading_the_way/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] I've made a faux Günther-Napoleon leading the way for Monerujo and Ledger integration, please chip in and donate to the cause at our FFS proposal! (https://i.redd.it/t3oi6kx1qfa11.jpg) to r/Monero | 147 points (97.0%) | 12 comments | Posted by anhdres | Created at 2018-07-17 - 04:22:18
<sgp_> Does anyone else have community updates to share?
<pwrcycle> FYI, Defcon Party update, we have security goons and we have 5 DJ slots filled (YTcracker will open and close the party as DJ)
<ArticMine> http://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/150761/TAX3%20Study%20on%20cryptocurrencies%20and%20blockchain.pdf
<oneiric_> yes, have some Kovri update
<sgp_> oneiric_ that may be best for the workgroup report?
<oneiric_> Ok
<ArticMine> Not strictly community initiated but in my opinion requires a community response
<sgp_> Your call. I can give you a whole section later
<vp11> many highlights this time, I like it :)
<ArticMine> I am talking about the EU ban
<sgp_> Wow, Monero was mentioned at least 57 times
<msvb-lab> sgp_: Were you instrumental in helping Tutanota accept Monero?
<ArticMine> So I would suggest we put this on the agenda
<sgp_> msvb-lab, no that was mostly before my time actually
<sgp_> ArticMine sure, we can add it to later discussions. Good topic
<cinnamonflower> We launched the Defcon Monero Party promotion on social media yesterday, please RT to get the word out if you have not done so already —> https://twitter.com/cinnamonflower/status/1020532762237734913
<monerobux> [ cinnamonflower on Twitter: "#Monero #XMR #defconparties community: Remember that kickass party from last year? Back by popular demand, M.E.A. invites you to this year's #Defcon 26 #DefconMoneroParty l ] - twitter.com
<cinnamonflower> I think that our Monero Party Dude graphic will catch everyone's attention.
<sgp_> retweeted
<sgp_> Anythign else before we move on to FFS updates?
<sgp_> 3. FFS updates
<sgp_> There are several Forum Funding System (FFS) updates. Workgroup reports now have their own section.
<sgp_> The Defcon supplies moved to funding required https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/90538/monero-defcon-26-supplies
<sgp_> Ledger support for Moneujo https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/90520/ledger-support-for-monerujo
<sgp_> Does anyone else have a FFS update, or comments about any of these FFS proposals?
<sgp_> I had less time to prepare today, so there's a high likelihood I missed something
<rehrar> FFS stuff has been ok recently. Been getting stuff funded ok. :)
<sgp_> The Dutch transactions still have not been moved
<oneiric_> Ledger support in Monerujo is huge, very cool FFS
<sgp_> We may need to pester luigi about it
<msvb-lab> What is dutch transactions?
<vp11> translation*
<sgp_> *translations
<endogenic> cinnamonflower: it's very coney island :D
<cinnamonflower> thank you :)
<sgp_> Hearing no thoughts, we can move on
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<sgp_> This is a new separate section where other workgroups can report on all that they are working on. If you would like for your workgroup to be represented, please contact me at least a few hours before the meeting.
<sgp_> a. Kovri
<oneiric_> Kovri had it's first code freeze for a release candidate last Wednesday, next code freeze will be this upcoming Wednesday. Alpha release is still planned for early August. TweetNaCL is now implemented for EdDSA signatures (huge thanks to noloader from CryptoPP and anonimal).
<sgp_> oneiric_ you have the floor :)
<endogenic> wow!
<oneiric_> thanks sgp_
<sgp_> Can you speak about what TweetNaCL is and why it's useful?
<oneiric_> Sure, TweetNaCL is a crypto library from DJ Bernstein, and is highly studied
<oneiric_> It provides a more secure base for signing and verifying key Kovri data structures
<sgp_> I think everyone is excited for Kovri, and we appreciate the update
<vp11> amazing news on kovri, well done boys & girls & cyborgs! you rock :)
<sgp_> Do any other workgroups have a report?
<oneiric_> Absolutely, focus is now on bugfixes and testing, so anyone that wants to contribute cycles to running live tests is much appreciated
<oneiric_> thanks again for the time
<sgp_> you're always welcome
<sgp_> 5. Tracking challenge discussion
<sgp_> Some generous individual covered the costs of this proposal: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/88145/monero-tracking-challenge-2
<sgp_> Unfortunately, the proposal is defunct, and we need to choose where to allocate the funds.
<rehrar> sgp_ this has become a non issue
<rehrar> it was all but decided that the funds would go to the general fund
<rehrar> and then a person finished the proposal's funding
<ArticMine> That was my understanding
<vp11> in fact, even the guy itself (allegedly) said he's ok with funds going to the general fund.
<rehrar> this person has since posted on reddit that he is fine with his new big contribution going to the general fund
<vp11> i have a link somewhere, let me find it
<vp11> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/8wv6gi/the_monero_tracking_challenge_for_500_monero_has/e1zbw2w/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] The Monero Tracking Challenge for 500 Monero has been funded - However, there remains large issues with the subject. (self.Monero) | 9 points (81.0%) | 18 comments | Posted by OsrsNeedsF2P | Created at 2018-07-07 - 18:19:37
<rehrar> if that was the decisino reached before this guy, and with this guy's permission for after, General Fund is all but agreed upon imo
<rehrar> unless there are any objections
<sgp_> Any objections?
<vp11> I mean, for sure it's not enough "proof" since someone could've fabricated the screenshot, but since we all had agreed it was going to the general fund, I think we can safely proceed on that path
<sgp_> Good, that was non-controversial as expected
<sgp_> General fund it is
<sgp_> This meeting is going by very quickly
<sgp_> 6. Open ideas time
<sgp_> It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
<sgp_> Let's open with ArticMine's EU discussion
<rehrar> I have a proposal
<sgp_> Here's the link again: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/150761/TAX3%20Study%20on%20cryptocurrencies%20and%20blockchain.pdf
<rehrar> I'll do it after this. :)
<vp11> <ArticMine> Not strictly community initiated but in my opinion requires a community response (about EU ban) <= I agree the community could discuss it. What kind (or tone) of response would you suggest?
<sgp_> Do you want a research paper-type response as I have done before?
<oneiric_> vitriol and pure hatred ;)
<ArticMine> For a starters a well reason research paper type response
<ArticMine> That is based upon existing EU law
<sgp_> We should talk with parasew. He is interested in this stuff
<ArticMine> and addresses the fundamental flaws in the propsed selective ban
<sgp_> I can shoot him an email
<ArticMine> But also deals with flawed concepts such as the use of "blockchain analytics" as a means of AML / KNC
<oneiric_> link not tor friendly, are they only talking about banning specific cryptos?
<ArticMine> It is way more complex than that
<xmrscott_> One that highlights some comments are as naive as saying we should allow for backdoors into encrypted devices. In particular this comment on page 82 is amusing (currently jumping through the paper looking for XMR references): The question arises whether some aspects relating to some cryptocurrencies should not just be banned and criminally sanctioned. To mind come the mixing process attached to Dash's feature
<xmrscott_> PrivateSend and Monero's RingCT, stealth addresses and Kovri-project. In essence, these features are designed to make cryptocurrency users untraceable. But why is such degree of anonymity truly necessary? Would allowing this not veer too far towards criminals? Imposing a ban for such aspects surrounding cryptocurrencies that are aimed at making it impossible to verify their users and criminally
<xmrscott_> sanctioning these aspects seems to be in line with the Council's conclusions of April 2018
<sgp_> oneiric_ let me get you a mirror on Nextcloud
<ArticMine> for example the completely overlook ZCash which in it self is a very strong argument against a selective ban
<ArticMine> Then there is the issue of the Data protection laws in the EU
<sgp_> oneiric_: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/s/g5LMnEJBDeX3fyM
<oneiric_> Sounds like a similar tack to the crypto export bans of the 90's
<xmrscott_> They might as well ban encryption and Tor
<ArticMine> and mandating the release of the very private information that is protected by privacy laws on a public block chain
<ArticMine> It raise the very same issue
<ArticMine> issues
<oneiric_> hopefully this goes the way of https
<ArticMine> as banning encryption
<ArticMine> I see this as the start of a protected fight
<oneiric_> ^ seen as a tool for criminals, then as a necessity for online commerce
<sgp_> Here's another relevant report: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/604970/IPOL_STU(2018)604970_EN.pdf
<ArticMine> which we will win in the end
<pwrcycle> instead of pointing out how the ban is in-effective, I think it would more useful to talk about why privacy is important.
<ArticMine> protracted
<ArticMine> Yes but we must address how the proposal impact privacy
<xmrscott_> Do politicians care about why privacy is important though? Don't they want effective policy?
<sgp_> "One US academic study estimates that approximately 25 % of all Monero activity as illicit." uh, this is false. I should ask MoneroLink authors to complain
<xmrscott_> (I guess though we're talking about the EU, no the US)
<oneiric_> They will when it's their privacy xmrscott_
<ArticMine> they passed the GDPR
<ArticMine> So that is a starting point
<ArticMine> In fact demonstrating how the propoed ban violated the GDPR is a good startng point
<ArticMine> starting
<pwrcycle> Privacy is important, so that you are not the target of criminals.
<ArticMine> We know that so does the EU
<xmrscott_> I agree. We might want to also pull in an org like EFF to help protest if anyone has any connections
<xmrscott_> Or Free Software Foundation
<sgp_> Potentially controversial opinion: working with Zcash to address this
<msvb-lab> pwrcycle: Privacy is guaranteed as well by the declaration of human rights paragraph 12 (legal document.)
<ArticMine> Yes, and even go as far as an FFS for a lobbying firm in Brussels
<pwrcycle> xmrscott_: I don't know any orgs, but you will find friends in CCC (Chaos Computer Congress)
<oneiric_> Agree, this sounds like something inline with EFF & FSF goals
<pwrcycle> CCC is the Defcon of Europe.
<ArticMine> We have to mobilize significant opposition
<msvb-lab> Most ccc groups have active IRC channels, by the way.
<rehrar> I want to go to the next ccc
<oneiric_> ^ +1
<ArticMine> My take is that we can start with a well researched public response
<sgp_> ArticMine I agree
<ArticMine> That draws upon existing EU law
<sgp_> I know parasew is already working on a similar project
<ArticMine> This can be the basis for building up the opposition
<vp11> well researched public response, then see if we can find other organizations to support the community's response/instance and build opposition this way.
<msvb-lab> sgp_: Does the outreach team have anything to report for workgroups? I'm curious about them.
<sgp_> msvb-lab they did not send me any updates today
<ArticMine> Yes that is the idea. The other organization need to see solid evidence
<ArticMine> In any case I see this as the start of a long fight, which we will win in the end
<rehrar> ArticMine: but it will only be won if we do something :)
<rehrar> complacency is not an option here
<sgp_> So how about this: ArticMine, can you create a new IRC channel for this that isn't Monero-specific, and I can reach out to my contacts in Europe, Coin Center, Zcash, and the EFF?
<xmrscott_> Agreed, so whoever is heading this project I would like to help in whatever way I can
<oneiric_> I'd like to help as well, crucially important fight
<ArticMine> One must keep in mind that the attack at this point is Monero and Dash specific
<ArticMine> Ironically that is one of the major weaknesses
<rehrar> all eyes warily look toward each other at the mention of dash
<sgp_> ArticMine, but Zcash is threatened for sure: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/604970/IPOL_STU(2018)604970_EN.pdf
<sgp_> It's mentioned in several other reports
<Diffusive> The EU laws are demanding the data of users?
<sgp_> Hell if Dash wants to pay for lawyers that's fine too
<oneiric_> Amanda B. Johnson will be giving a deposition
<Diffusive> Oh i see.
<oneiric_> :P
<ArticMine> I do believe that Monero needs to take the lead here
<rehrar> I agree.
<ArticMine> It is the best way to ensure we are protected
<rehrar> It also would be really stupid if the coin that values privacy above all else doesn't take the lead in something that threatens privacy
<sgp_> ArticMine I don't know if we have enough resources to take this on alone. Zcash and Coin Center have a lot of these connections to the EFF, others already
<rehrar> ruins that there street cred
<oneiric_> True, maybe building a history of financial privacy law applied to fiat
<ArticMine> We actually do
<Diffusive> do we?
<ArticMine> Yes Developing a weel thought out community response for starters
<ArticMine> well
<Diffusive> i know that Monero is leading in privacy, but it would take a lot of resouces, our community is strong and they would kindly donate to anything we need.
<sgp_> We need to have people that understand all the legal nuances
<Diffusive> But i think it would need a lot
<vp11> to take the lead on this issue doesn't necessarily means we need resources (aka money). or at least to "start" the conversation and get support from other orgs (which should not require money)
<ArticMine> The biggest enemy I can see is the coin analytics companies
<sgp_> vp11 agree
<rehrar> vp11: is correct. Taking the lead can be as simple as using what resources we do have (not all of them are money) to the fullest
<rehrar> and leading the charge so to speak. Rallying other groups.
<xmrscott_> ArticMine: Do they have much, if any lobbying power given their startup nature?
<ArticMine> They have already done a lot of damage
<ArticMine> By getting the EU fixated on chain analytics
<ArticMine> rather than KNC
<ArticMine> That is why they are proposing this ban
<xmrscott_> Ah, so there's some potential well researched point about how this isn't really about criminal privacy but money losage
<xmrscott_> *revenue lose
<ArticMine> A basic issue that if the information on a public blockchain can be used for AML then it also violates privacy
<rehrar> right, which goes against their most recent privacy law that data must be able to be deleted upon request
<ArticMine> SO one cannot depend on blockchain analytics for AML without destroying privacy
<oneiric_> Maybe base some of the argument on individuals can provide view keys if under investigation
<sgp_> ArticMine, do you want to take on the role of helping organize this?
<oneiric_> i.e. non-backdoor ways to provide information to authorities
<ArticMine> It may come down to that much as in the UK case with encryption
<vp11> oneiric_, I believe this is valid point. Monero has features to become at least partially transparent if someone is under investigation.
<Diffusive> truth
<ArticMine> I can most definitely contribute. If no one else is willing to step up then yes I will take the lead
<Diffusive> I can help too with anything needed.
<sgp_> Great. Would you mind creating an IRC channel like #EU-privacy, #EU-cryptocurrency, or similar for me to direct people to?
<sgp_> Anything else on this topic? It's good we're all excited
<rehrar> time for my thing
<rehrar> ?
<sgp_> If there's nothing else, you can discuss your thing rehrar
<ArticMine> Sure I set up the channel
<sgp_> Thanks so much ArticMine
<Diffusive> Thanks
<oneiric_> Thank you
<rehrar> I propose that after Defcon we take a break on community meetings for a month or so. Just to help prevent burnout. Just an idea.
<rehrar> Defcon meetings, kovri, mrl, dev, community, it can be a lot sometimes :D
<oneiric_> ^ second this idea
<rehrar> I'm just noticing involvement in many meetings dropping off a bit
<xmrscott_> Yeah, probably a good idea
<rehrar> and I'm getting the sense it's the fatigue
<oneiric_> love you all, fuse is burning short
<sgp_> We currently have meetings on Aug 18 and Sept 1. Do you want to skip both?
<rehrar> that would be my suggestion, yes
<xmrscott_> ArticMine: What is the channel?
<sgp_> What about skipping Sept 4 and Sept 18 actually? The one before and after Defcon
<xmrscott_> DefCon is Aug 8-12
<sgp_> I meant Aug 4 and Aug 18, my bad
<oneiric_> sounds good to me
<ArticMine> So reconvene on August 25?
<rehrar> sure thing
<rehrar> ye
<sgp_> ArticMine the next meeting would be Sept 1 then
<ArticMine> Ok Sept 1
<sgp_> Any objections for scheduling the next community meeting for Sept 1 (skipping Aug 4 and 18)?
<vp11> nope, I think it's very reasonable.
<sgp_> 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be two weeks from today on the 1 September at 17:00 UTC. When in doubt, use the calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<sgp_> *not two weeks from today
<sgp_> 8. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
<Diffusive> Ok
<oneiric_> Many thanks
<rehrar> Great. Thanks!
<vp11> thanks everyone
Post tags : Dev Diaries, Cryptography